rhys gethin09-01-2007, 20:57
I was responsible for post 27. I said there was a nice (ie fine) distinction.
Let me explain: in the culture I come from a man might be known as "Donald son of Thomas". (Domhall mac Thomais). That's patronymic. His surname might be MacKay. (Mac Aoidh) Which means Son of Aoidh. But Donald's father wasn't called Aoidh - it was Thomas. In fact in this case perhaps nobody's father was Aoidh, it's a archaic word for fire. While there might have been an Aoidh, it's just as likely that the clan name (clann means children) "son of fire" wasn't literal. But it's quite normal for someone to be called Domhall mac Thomais Mac Aoidh. And I'll not go into women, who commonly get called, colloquially, by their maiden names all their lives.
This is where it gets complicated: Gowans (or Gowan, or Gibbon) comes from the Gaelic for a smith, which is gobhainn (pron gowaign). However people are called Mac a' Ghobhainn in Gaelic - son of the smith. But that same person would be called Smith in English. (A famous example is the novelist and poet, Iain Crichton Smith, known as Iain Mac a' Ghobhainn in Gaelic). So is Smith patronymic or not? What about Gowans?
See what I mean about a fine distinction?
(Sorry for the side track, but I find this stuff interesting).
Yup - same with us. The sort of surname your talking about is pretty well universal in Cymru: it was once a patronymic. Gwilym ap Rhys had a patronymic name. He had a son called not Ifan ap Gwilym but Evan Rhys/Rees. Since his father wasn't called after his father, he had a surname. We don't have occupational names - I had ancestors who were smiths, but they weren't called Gof but -incredibly - Smith, though they didn't speak English at that point, as far I can make out. Some local landowner being 'helpful'? Very odd!
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P.S.-
Celtic is a language family with a number of different, but related, languages, including Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Manx on the Gaelic side, and Welsh, Breton and Cornish on the British side.Celtic and Gaelic courses involve the study of the languages, literature, history and culture of the Celtic peoples over the centuries with particular emphasis on Scottish Gaelic, Irish and Welsh in their medieval and modern forms.For those fluent in Scottish Gaelic a range of courses are taught through the medium of Gaelic. Literature courses include the study of literature both in the original and in translation.
